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Sources for discussion

This is a list of potential academic sources from the past two decades. Valereee (talk) 19:53, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Pavāra, Jayasiṅgarāva Bhāūsāheba, ed. (2021). Chatrapatī Sambhājī smāraka grantha. Mehatā Pabliśiṅga Hāūsa. ISBN 9789391151201. From Worldcat: "Festschrift on the life and times of Raja Sambhaji, died 1689, Maratha ruler." Held in the libraries of UMichigan, UChicago, UPenn, Columbia, UCBerkeley. Here is what one of his publishers has to say about the editor. Valereee (talk) 12:49, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Pawar, Manjushri (July 2015). "Defamation of Chhatrapati Sambhaji in Marathi Literature" (PDF). Vishwawarana National Research Journal. II (2): 27–33. Author is Assi. Professor, Department of History, Yashwantrao Chavan Warana Mahavidhyala, Warana Nagar, Kolhapur, Maharashtra.Valereee (talk) 13:16, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Mehendale, Gajanan Bhaskar (2011). Shivaji: His life and times. Param Mitra Publications. ISBN 9789380875170. According to a review for Oxford Bibliographies, "the most comprehensive of these overviews in detailing events and people important in Shivaji’s rise to power." Held in the collection of Princeton. Valereee (talk) 15:18, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Chhabra, G.S. (1971, update 2005). Advance Study in the History of Modern India (Volume-1: 1707-1803). Lotus Press. pp. 15–. ISBN 978-81-89093-06-8. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link) Valereee (talk) 15:56, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Shivde, Sadashiv (2008). Jwaljwalantejas Sambhajiraja ("Bright like a burning star King Sambhaji" per user:Akshaypatill). Pune: Diamond Publications. p. 378. ISBN 978-8184830477.
  6. Laine, James W. (2003-02-13). "Cracks in the Narrative". Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India. Oxford University Press. p. 93. doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195141269.003.0006. ISBN 978-0-19-514126-9. Valereee (talk) 16:34, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Sri S. L. Srinivasa Murthy (25 May 2012). SHIVAJI. Sapna Book House (P) Ltd. pp. 21–. ISBN 978-81-280-1758-2.
  8. Bhawan Singh Rana (2005). Chhatrapati Shivaji. Diamond Pocket Books (P) Ltd. pp. 97–. ISBN 978-81-288-0826-5.
  9. Anant V. Darwatkar (2005). Shivaji Maharaja: Maratha Chhatrapati In Bharat-varsha : Shivaji : Hindu king in Islamic India" by J.W. Laine/2003 : false and fluid one. Shree Shambhu Prerana Pakashan. p. 107.

Discussion

Source 1: Pavara/PawarJ 2021

Anyone know anything about the publisher, such as whether it's a respected academic publisher? Valereee (talk) 14:41, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, wait, this is probably it: Mehta Publishing House. Doesn't look like an academic publisher. Valereee (talk) 14:43, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Just wanted to note that works from this publication has been cited on many Wikipedia articles . AlvaKedak (talk) 16:47, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, we don't consider that important. Sources at other articles may be insufficient, or the content cited to those sources may be less contentious. Valereee (talk) 16:58, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Anything described as Festschrift is probably not going to meet the bar for sole use. I worry that the sources on this topic are divided between attacks and hagiographies. The best outcome we might get here is "a says b, x says y"; minimizing what we say in pure wikivoice is probably for the best. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:03, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I was wondering about that...so Festschrift might be writers honoring not only the person but his/her point of view on a topic? Valereee (talk) 17:08, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think it risks not taking a critical look. If you're writing a book to honor a revered religious figure, you might come to a different conclusion than if you approach it as writing a biography about a historical ruler. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:29, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
To my understanding, festschrifts are to academics what hagiographies are to clergy. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 18:04, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I actually have to read Festschriften on a pretty regular basis for work; my impression is that they're like a book-length version of getting all your coworkers to sign a card for your retirement. Sometimes useful as primary sources (or clues as to where to look for sources) for biographical research, but yeah not a conventional RS. signed, Rosguill talk 18:15, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source 2: PawarM 2015

It looks like the journal is published by the college where she teaches. Valereee (talk) 14:46, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

She is the head of the department of History and has a PhD according to the profile at the college's website: [1] Akshaypatill (talk) 15:40, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, wow, her full name is Manjushri Jaysingrao Pawar...does this likely indicate she's source #1's daughter? Valereee (talk) 15:47, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. The source #1 is also a reputed historian and written a dozen of books, but most his work is in the local language Marathi. Akshaypatill (talk) 15:53, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Do you read/write Marathi? I ask because it's really difficult to search in other languages when there's transliteration involved, so many English-speakers like me have a difficult time finding sources. Valereee (talk) 15:58, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I can read Marathi. But the problem is the local historians usually publish in form of offline books only, so its hard finding, quoting and verifying the stuff, unless you have got ton of time to spare. :) Akshaypatill (talk) 16:12, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You might try WP:Resource Request. Those folks are great. For English sources at least, if it's in a library, they'll find it and often can send you an email. Valereee (talk) 16:19, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just read this. I'd struggle to call it neutral, although it does do a decent job of tracking the portrayal of Sambahji in Marathi literature throughout time. I'd say the lesson to take away here is: pre-Independence, Sambhaji was viewed poorly by the literati. Post-independence, writers saw him as a Dharmaveer and "Swatantryaveer" (roughly auto-translates as "freedom fighter"? Would love to hear a Maratha speakers opinion though.). CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 06:43, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source 3: Mehendale 2011

Historian Sumit Guha endorsing Mehendale - History and Collective Memory in South Asia, 1200–2000, University of Washington Press (Page: 91) - "The effort to supply credible evidence could go to considerable lengths, as illustrated with evidence from two different cases. The first has been exhaustively studied by Gajanan Mehendale, a major historian of Maharashtra..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akshaypatill (talk • contribs)

Note that Guha is full professor with a named chair in history at UTexas. Almost certainly notable enough for Sumit Guha. Valereee (talk) 16:38, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Mehendale's book is published by a pro-Maratha publication called Param Mitra Publications. It is unreliable for the topic. GenuineArt (talk) 03:23, 27 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It being pro-Maratha is not in itself disqualifying unless you can show the book is propaganda or otherwise has an extreme bias. If we waited for an unbiased source, we'd be here until the heat death of the universe. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 16:21, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source 4: Chhabra 2005

Do we have the wrong book here? There are only 12 mentions of Sambhaji. The period the book covers is post-Sambhaji by a couple decades. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 17:45, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is pretty old book, first edition in 1971 and a few reprints in between and a revision in 2005. Also, remember that there are multiple people named 'Sambhaji' in Maratha History. Shivaji's had a elder brother named 'Sambhaji' and there are more like Sambhaji I of Kolhapur. So, the actual number of mentions is much lesser, I think 4-5 mostly. Akshaypatill (talk) 18:09, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source 5: Shivde, Sadashiv. Jwaljwalantejas Sambhajiraja (1 ed.). Pune: Diamond Publications. p. 378.

[2][3]This is used in the article, I have no idea if it's academic/something we should use, so I'd like comments on that. If we're keeping it, someone could add a translated title to the ref.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:16, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Not reliable. The title of the book sounds like a tribute to the subject. Also, the writer is a not a historian. [[4]] Akshaypatill (talk) 18:43, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Akshaypatill, can you translate the title? I tried to do it with google translate and got "Almost Contingent Sambhajiraja" which doesn't help with what you mean by sounds like a tribute. Valereee (talk) 12:33, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Valereee It kind of means 'Glowing/bright like a burning fire- King Sambhaji' Akshaypatill (talk) 13:07, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source 6: Laine 2003

Though James Laine is a academic, he isn't technically a historian. His scholarship deals with Religious Studies. Also, this book isn't about history of Shivaji or Marathas as such, but it focuses on the 'stories' told later about Shivaji, for example the legends, poems told and sung by Maharashtrian people. Laine himself has said it in the book that the purpose of the book is "to examine critically the growth of his legend, as it relates to narratives of Maharashtrian Hindu identity". So, though the book is an academic work, it is not as authoritative for this particular subject/article. Maybe, we could use it for stuff related to the religion. Akshaypatill (talk) 20:16, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source 7: Murthy 2012

Source 8: Rana 2005

Source 9: Darwatkar 2005

Richards, John F. refs

I've merged them except for the one in the current [2] multi-ref in the lead. Not sure how to best deal with that, any thoughts? I considered removing it from the lead-ref, but I understand it might be considered relevant there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:20, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Conversion to sfn/harv reference formatting will fix that. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:33, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not recommended without serious discussion per WP:REFVAR. My personal view is that named ref-tag refs is quite workable, easily accessible in ref-toolbar and VE, and perhaps considered easier to work with in general by many, especially newer editors. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Mehta, Jaswant Lal ref is also in the [2] ref and other places. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:35, 28 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Fake allegations - No citations - offensive allegations

I see so many allegations on mass rapes and being poorly viewed by historians. However, I see there are no citations for the content presented. I am disheartened to see wikipedia spreading foul about a freedom fighter like Sambhaji Maharaja. The editors of this post should be condemned and wikipedia must verify such kind of posts before publishing 2406:7400:63:78E6:B97B:7956:1EEB:62BD (talk) 20:08, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Try reading beyond the lead paragraph. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 20:11, 4 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's fine to add citations to a sentence in the lead if there's ongoing contention about that content from casual readers. Valereee (talk) 14:41, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Even if we did that they'd complain about the source in some way. "It's from a Westerner." "The guy's from New Delhi." "Source is from the 1700's." "Source is from today, how the hell would they know?" —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 16:57, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I know, but at least they couldn't say "not even cited". Which is actually a valid reason to object to content if you aren't aware that the lead summarizes cited content from the body. Valereee (talk) 18:52, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind having cites in the lead in articles like this, but since the lead is meant to be a summary it sometimes leads to huge cite-bundles, like at Jai Shri Ram and Palmer Report. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:56, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I kind of feel like huge cite-bundles is the lesser evil when it comes to readers? Valereee (talk) 20:49, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Being bundles, I don't think they bother the general reader. I think there are many editors who consider a cite-less lead a mark of quality, but I'd say there's enough "challengeable material" to justify lead-refs here. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:00, 6 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Concur, but part of the issue here is that the sources themselves are also contested, hence my comment about complaining about the sources. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 16:58, 8 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
These are not fake just because you don't find it tasteful.
There are multiple citations on it clearly mentioning these events.
We don't have earlier sources that deny it.
Bias is one thing but negating an entire event or series of events is completely different Sn cgh (talk) 12:53, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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